User talk:TheCzechDuck
Hi, welcome to Mass Effect Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Tali'Zorah nar Rayya page. Be sure to check out our Style Guide and Community Guidelines to help you get started, and please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Tullis (Talk) 21:16, February 1, 2010 Quick Language Note Hello! Just saw your recent additions concerning American and British English on your user page and, taking somewhat of an interest in languages myself, thought I'd point something out real quick. A statement you made leapt out at me, specifically "British English stays truer to its roots in the French language". I feel compelled to point out that, linguistically speaking, British English (or any English, for that matter) does not have roots in French. English (in all it's forms) is a Western Germanic language, Western Germanic being a subset of the Germanic family of languages. French, on the other hand, is a Romance language, being descended from Latin, with Romance languages being a subset of the Italic family of languages. Italic and Germanic are two totally separate families of languages within the Indo-European linguistic phylum. So, linguistically speaking, English is much more closely related to Dutch, Afrikaans, and German than it is to Romance languages like French, Italian, Spanish, and Romanian. So, while French may have influenced English somewhat thanks to the Norman conquest of England, English does not have any roots in French, it's roots actually lying with Old Frisian. Just a little gee-whiz info for you! SpartHawg948 00:58, February 3, 2010 (UTC) *Greetings. Thank you very much for your comment. I noticed on Tali's page that you contribute quite often. Glad to see another fan of Tali ! I am rather new to this wiki, but, as I say on my main page, not to the Mass Effect universe. Anyway, to the point: although English is grammatically more similar to Germanic languages, French strongly influences its vocabulary. As you no doubt know, the 1066 CE Conquest of England by William the Conqueror (or Guillaume le Conquerant in French) forever changed English society, language included. I think it a little hard to downplay French's effect on English vocabulary. Thank you again for your comment. Additionally, which do you prefer using: British or American English ? One last thing: I am considering adding a section entitled 'Quarian Architecture' to the 'Quarian' page. What do you think ? Is it worth the effort ? TheCzechDuck 01:07, February 3, 2010 (UTC) ::*Well hello! I must say, I do appreciate the response, both prompt and polite! I'm one of the three admins of this site, so yes, you could say that I contribute quite often! :) You are correct that English is strongly influenced by French, largely due to the Norman conquest, but the cruz of the point I was making was that you cited the "French roots" of the English language, when no such roots exist. The roots of the English language are solidly Germanic. French does influence the English language, but so do a number of other languages that are in no way tied into the "roots" of the language. I was in no way downplaying the French language's effect on English vocabulary, I was merely pointing out that the English language itself evolved independently from French, and the language itself belongs to an entirely separate family of language. If we're going to stick with the tree analogy, the roots of the English language are German, with French being one of the main fertilizers used to promote growth. ::*Personally, as an American I prefer American English spellings, especially when the American spelling is more concise (armor instead of armour, color instead of colour, meter instead of meter and metre, etc.) but I strictly uphold the spelling policy of the site. If I see an edit being made for the sole purpose of changing a British English word to its American English equivalent, I undo it immediately. Finally, I don't think there is any need for a "quarian architecture" section for two reasons (and remember, it's quarian, not Quarian). 1) No other race has an architecture section (not even the Reapers, Protheans, or asari, about whom we have many more architectural examples then the quarians), and we like to keep the articles consistent, and 2) We don't really have any idea what quarian architecture actually looks like. All we've seen is one facility on one planet. Hardly enough to draw any conclusions from. And that, I believe, about wraps my comments up! SpartHawg948 06:49, February 3, 2010 (UTC) ::: I see. Thank you very much for your insightful comments. I misspoke in calling French the 'roots' of the English language. However, I stand by the claim that it has been instrumental in forming English as it is known today. In concerning 'Quarian Architecture', I agree with you (by the way, 'quarian' was capitalised in that case because it would have been a section heading !). Indeed, you are right: one can hardly judge an entire species' architecture from one planet. Such would be equivalent to adding a section under 'Humans' about 'Human Architecture' from the one picture of Earth from the Codex in Mass Effect 1. Thank you again for your insight. One last thing: not trying to suck up to you or anything, but how much does one have to do for this wiki to be considered for administrator status ? TheCzechDuck 22:36, February 3, 2010 (UTC) ::::There isn't really a set standard, but a user would have to be a pretty major contributor. I was the second person (other than a few wikia staff members) to make major edits and contributions to this site, which is what got me my admin-ship, and the other two admins (Tullis and DRY contributed heavily, as in 1000+ edits) and over a fairly lengthy period before being made admins. For myself and Tullis, it was a matter of requesting adminship from the wikia staff and them giving it to us. With DRY, Tullis and I decided we could use another admin, agreed that DRY was far and away the best choice, and once DRY agreed to accept the role, we asked the wikia staff to make him an admin as well. And that's pretty much it! SpartHawg948 06:44, February 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::: I see. Thanks for the info. Got another question for you: what is this wiki's policy concerning citations ? For example, let us say that Tali reveals to Shepard that their romantic encounter was worth the illness she now suffers. Should one quote it as: Tali says it was 'totally worth it', or Tali says it was "totally worth it" ? I mean, should single or double quotes be employed in citations ? Note that British English prefers single quotes. Thanks in advance for your help. TheCzechDuck 14:01, February 4, 2010 (UTC) Russian language Glad to know I am not the only Mass Effect Wikia user who speaks Russian! Очень интересно узнать твой уровень владения языком! (I am a native speaker) Naihilus Ceris 14:04, February 15, 2010 (UTC) P.S: I love Mordin's safe-sex talks! :спасибо�! Truth be told, I actually know very little Russian. I assume that you saw my improvement of the Patsayev page; I could not tolerate the transliteration without the authentic Cyrillic. However, I am only attempting to teach myself Russian; I will not take formal classes until I enter college this fall. Apart from the Cyrillic alphabet, I know only a few words. Still, it is good to see that this wiki has an international audience. If I can help in any way, you need only ask ! --TheCzechDuck 14:37, February 15, 2010 (UTC) Hammerhead Sorry, I don't know when Bioware is going to release it; though I hope it is going to be soon enough (2 weeks - 2 months). But return of the ground vehicle leaves a question - will planet exploration return and (since the answer is probably positive) what size of this DLC would be (either planet surfaces are already present in game files, or they will be shipped along with Hammerhead)! P.S: Which country are you resident of (I presume it is Czech Republic)? P.S.S: I made a snapshot of Tali's face in Mass Effect 1, which shows it more clearly Naihilus Ceris 15:23, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :I hope that you are right. Also, I actually am American. My great-grandfather immigrated to the US in the 1910s from Czechoslovakia. My name shows my heritage. :One more thing: is the Russian on the Patsayev page correct ? You would know, after all. --TheCzechDuck 23:09, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :: The Russian on Patsayev page is correct; I can't completely like Tali until she drops her anti-geth attitude Naihilus Ceris 02:50, February 16, 2010 (UTC) :::Thanks for the confirmation. About Tali: she does have an anti-geth attitude, but my Shepard fell in love with her. That probably makes a difference to how I like her. --TheCzechDuck 02:55, February 16, 2010 (UTC) Tali'Zorah vas Normandy nar Rayya Sorry for accusing Tali of being Geth-hater; I reviewed dialogues once again and found that she is not as paranoidal about reclaiming Quarian homeworld (like Han'Gerrel vas Neema) or bending Geth back under Quarian control (like Daro'Xen vas Moreh) (Tali even resents it to some degree). So I think Tali has a chance of straying away from all Quarian prejudices. Naihilus Ceris 15:29, February 16, 2010 (UTC) :I like how each of the three Admirals (Daro'Xen, Han'Gerrel, Zal'Koris) represents three extreme viewpoints. By the way, can you explain to me briefly the purpose of ъ in Russian ? I know that it indicates stress in words, but no other language has such an indicator. TheCzechDuck 17:29, February 16, 2010 (UTC) :: Ъ is used to "harden" the transition (create a gap) between vowels and consonants in some words, it is rarely used and is sometimes replaced with ' (apostrophe) sign. Russian language is only of Cyrillic languages which has Ъ letter. For more sophisticated (and correct) information please refer to: Ъ in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yer Naihilus Ceris 19:30, February 16, 2010 (UTC) :Thank you for the information. I think I understand it much better now. TheCzechDuck 20:40, February 16, 2010 (UTC) Quarians vs Geth "As Admiral Daro'Xen says, the quarians have 'paid enough for their mistakes' concerning the geth" - the same admiral who performed surgery on her toys and supports brainwashing Geth to bend them to her will... Naihilus Ceris 02:46, February 18, 2010 (UTC) Now to put more clarified explanation. I hate Tali because: 1.1. Statement: Tali is Ashley Williams of Mass Effect 2 1.2. Clarification: "Is it really necessary to have all these aliens on board?" - Tali's distrust towards Cerberus can be understood, her hostility against Geth is foolish, her rudeness with Garrus is a complete mystery (threatening him with a shotgun is a bit too much) 2.1. Statement: Tali is Carth Onasi of Mass Effect 2 2.2. Clarification: "I do not trust you! I cannot trust you or anyone ever again!" (similar was said by Tali at least on two major occasions) 3. Three hundred years obviously wasn't enough for most Quarians to realize the mistake made by their ancestors - Han'Gerrel vas Neema, Daro'Xen vas Moreh, Rael'Zorah and Tali's eagerness to repeat it is the best (and the worst) example of that 4. Presenting the evidence is the only visible way to ruin (or at least severely cripple) Han'Gerrel's and Daro'Xen's plans 5. Quarian foolishness speaks for themselves - they were exiled 300 years and still haven't made any substantial attempts to colonize a new planet Naihilus Ceris 16:33, February 18, 2010 (UTC) To respond to a few of your assertions: *I agree that quarians should attempt to resolve their conflict with geth. I do not dislike the geth; in fact, I like them a lot. But I also like quarians. In any case, quarians should find a world to resettle upon, even if not their homeworld, for Migrant Fleet's constant vagrancy damages quarian reputation and creates inter-species hostility. *Quarian species should not be judged solely upon their creation of geth: quarian technical expertise invaluable, and Shepard may need Migrant Fleet's help against Reapers. *Not all quarians desire conflict with geth. Admiral Zaal'Koris exemplifies a willingness to understand geth and treat them like actual life (which I believe they deserve), not rebellious machines. **Quarian species' opinion concerning war with geth is inconclusive. Two of five admirals (Han'Gerrel, Rael'Zorah) favour open war. One (Daro'Xen) wants enslavement. So, in total, three of five admirals (60% of Admiralty Board) are collectively 'anti-geth'. This leaves two of five (40% of Admiralty Board): Zaal'Koris is most 'pro-geth' quarian, and Shala'Raan is non-committal. 60% of quarian opinion, altough a majority, does not represent all opinion. Again, I do not agree with quarian hatred of geth. *Tali as a person is perhaps too distrustful of AI and geth. However, she is also fiercely loyal to Shepard and her people, as well as very brave. Can one fault her for that ? I have yet to see a character in Mass Effect that is flawless in every respect. Even Legion is not so: he, supposedly 'free' from organic emotions, is obsessed with Shepard, for he repairs himself with a piece of Shepard's armour. *I do not agree that Tali is similar to Ashley Williams. Williams is nearly xenophobic--as are Illusive Man and Miranda--unwilling to work with other species unless no other option exists. Williams is also militaristic; she distrusts diplomacy and prefers fighting. Tali is not this way; she bears no grudge against any race save the geth, which, as I stated, I do not agree with. Nor is Tali militaristic; her opinion concerning possible war with geth is undecided. In concerning her 'rudeness' towards Garrus: I think that she is simply joking with him. Apart from that one humourous exchange upon Citadel, I have yet to see Tali be rude to Garrus. Since I prefer the two of them for my squad, I probably would notice any rude exchanges. **Note: I despise Miranda. Her nonchalant suggestion to kidnap and interrogate Veetor upon Freedom's Progress is disgusting. She treats persons of other species--even other humans--as tools to be utilised, then discarded. She is very similar to Illusive Man in these respects. *As for the comparison to Carth Onasi, I cannot respond, for I have only played KoTOR II and not KoTOR I. I hope that this conversation may remain friendly. TheCzechDuck 18:04, February 18, 2010 (UTC) I don't see the comparison to Carth at all - you can't base it off a couple lines. Carth was fiercly loyal to the Republic, but he didn't trust anyone because he had been betrayed by his mentor. Tali doesn't trust Cerberus for a very good reason - they attacked the Migrant Fleet. She was perfectly willing to share information about Quarians with Shepard in ME1, and easily became good friends with much of the original Normandy's crew (she mentions missing Pressly and Engineer Adams). If anyone, I'd say Miranda's closer to Carth than Tali - she's fiercly loyal to Cerberus, but due to her upbringing, she is wary to give anyone her trust, and, as said above, is not above just seeing everyone as tools used to complete her mission. That said, I agree with pretty much all of TheCzechDuck's points. Vund223 18:30, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ______________________________ : To clarify: 1. I agree - there aren't flawless characters in ME, some just have less shortcomings than others; 2. I said that most Quarians wish to forcefully reclaim their homeworld, not all of them; 3. I never judged Quarians by their creation of the Geth - especially since "True Geth" turned out to be much more logical than those loyal to Nazara and Saren 4. As to Garrus: considering Tali's much darker mood in ME2, it is hard to evaluate their conversation on the Citadel as a "friendly" chat 5. A question about 300 years of aimless wandering around remains open 6. Tali's similarity with Carth: "Shepard, I trusted you, I even worked with a GETH on them team, but that is too much" "I don't who you are, but I know what Cerberus is like - so don't play nice with me" "I trusted you, yet you did the exact thing i begged you not to" P.S: Why can't all characters be like Garrus - loyal, nice and smart enough not to instigate interspecies conflict? I like the quarian and the geth situation as I can sympathize with both of them. What I think though is that because the rest of the galaxy view the geth as pests so do the quarians. If more people were willing to respect their sovereignty (I guess), I don't think the majority of quarians would be so quick to view them as just machines or pests. I supported Tali's views but now I see Legion and see that the geth are sentient and can be reasonable. And what once looked like reclaiming ancestral ground now seems to be a potential genocide. With all that said though, I really had no answers for Tali when she expressed not being able to touch a flower or receive a kiss. If the quarians start a war with the geth I honestly wouldn't know who to support. It's an unfortunate situation and I don't believe there is a clear answer, it's just one of the those things that need to work itself out. As for Tali, I don't think she is hateful or too distrustful. She seemed pretty shocked at how far her father went and joined Shepard regardless of his affiliation with Cerberus. I can't say I would have joined Shepard while he worked with Cerberus. I'm pretty distrustful. Garrus turned into an extremist which makes me a sad panda. D: Vegnas 19:03, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :Sorry in advance, CzechDuck, your talk page is kind of turning into a forum! I just wanted to throw in my two cents... I think I can sympathize with Tali's feelings in that she's the victim of a circumstance that she has nothing to do with (she wasn't there to create the geth or attempt to kill them). Her people live with a lot of hardship and are treated poorly because of just one mistake, but at the same time... the quarians were wrong. Period. In fact, I think the entire idea about "all AIs must be destroyed" that show up in Mass Effect is wrong. Life is life, synthetic or not. The quarian people essentially attempted to commit a genocide, and it didn't work out. Also, the geth aren't even really living on the quarian homeworld, they're just taking care of it. It also seems like the geth have some kind of whistful nostalgia for living with the quarians (when you complete the geth incursions mission in ME1, you hear a quarian singing on the terminal before it shuts off). So, it seems like the proper thing to do would be to start an open, diplomatic dialogue with the geth, and maybe they can learn to live peacefully together in a new way. If the quarians tried to start a war with the geth, especially without first trying to peacefully coexist witht he geth, I'd have to support the geth hands down. The quarians should have moved on already, and found a new home where they could start over, without the genocide. They are nursing old, sour feelings by not doing so. Tali's fears and hatred of the geth are prejudicial, passed down through generations, and do not take into account new information. It's difficult to get out of a blood feud, which is essentially what's going on. So, I can feel frustrated with Tali, but also sympathize with her feelings. But as bad as the quarians have it, seems to me like the geth have it worse... the difference is the geth just don't mind. As for Garrus turning into an extremist, I don't think that's really true... I think it's less that he's 'extreme' and more that he's become 'damaged' after the events with Sidonis. Also, his character doesn't change that much at all if you influenced him to be renegade in ME1. --Lilliful 20:01, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Bingo Vund223 21:02, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ---- To all: I do not mind my talk page's turning into a forum, rather I welcome it ! Anyway, everyone has made good points. To answer the question of three centuries' vagrancy: it is a strange situation. Tali and other quarians state that the Flotilla has sort of become their home, almost as though they are satisfied with it. If such a statement is true, I disagree with it. I have long considered the possibility that the quarians are a sort of analogue to gypsies: wandering, looked-down-upon peoples whose family ties are stronger than any other. Would the quarians be willing or able to cast aside their current society of ship-clans and constant resource shortages and listlessness ? I am not sure. It seems that the quarians' vagrancy sort of defines them: for example, the Pilgrimage--without question an essential part of quarian culture and important part of 'growing up' to quarians--did not exist before the Geth War (titled the 'Morning War' by the geth). If the quarians were to resettle somewhere, what would the Pilgrimage's purpose be ? Certainly not to bring back something of value to the Flotilla. Eventually, the Pilgrimage would become abolished, for no one would be willing to expel someone from a planet just so that he may 'grow up'. I think that the answer to this question may be that the quarians will never resettle, for their current culture demands a strained lifestyle. Perhaps Mass Effect 3 will prove me wrong. I hope it does. Additionally, in concerning the lines of Tali's that you quoted: it is important to note that, unless I am mistaken, they are responses to Shepard's betraying her in some way or another. It thus seems quite natural that she becomes angry. You still state that Garrus' and Tali's conversation upon the Citadel is hostile. If I may be so bold, I believe that you are 'reading too much' into it. Perhaps you have heard the American expression 'to call a spade a spade'. In this case, I believe that Tali's gruff attitude echoes players' complaints about long elevator rides in Mass Effect. One may ask, 'If true, why, then, is Tali seemingly so hostile ?' I think that she is so for humourous effect and nothing more. No other character could have such an exchange with Garrus, for no other squad-mate from Mass Effect is available in Mass Effect 2. Moving along, it is rather difficult to define when the geth merit classification as 'life'. Certainly in their current form, I classify them as a race, just as batarians or hanar. The geth 'make their own future'; such qualifies them as a sentient race. However, the geth have evolved much since the Geth War. I personally doubt that they would have classified as a race prior to and during the Geth War. Please, let us continue this debate. TheCzechDuck 21:16, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :RE/Quarians and Gypsies -- I've thought a lot about this too! I worry that, in some ways, the quarians would not know who they are without their fear of the geth. In some ways, it seems like the 300 years of migrating is a way to hold on to the hope of returning to their home planet, such that it seems they refuse to give up the idea of fighting the geth. On the other hand, over time, I think it may have become the opposite -- they have become attached to the migrant culture, and in order to continue it, must hold on to the idea that they cannot settle because they must drive out the geth one day. As for the migrant culture... in some ways, I really like it, in other ways, I worry for their relations with other species... maybe a compromise could be keeping the migrant fleet around a system that they have claimed as 'their own' -- so they can farm the planets sustainably without stripping resources and without the danger of mass starvation if a lifeship fails, but still keeping their ship-based culture and pilgrimage ideal. RE/Shotgun Conversation -- I agree with you CzechDuck, it seemed like a humorous extra 'easter egg' to reward ME1 players. As for whether or not they qualify as a race during the Geth war, I think they do... because they had self-awareness and could conceive of a soul. Each individual robot might not have qualified as an individual, but together they had a collective consciousness, and shutting down all the geth would be genocide. In many ways the geth were like the rachni, that they needed a hive mind to function. Nowadays, I think they additionally qualify as individuals. I always think about that when I'm killing geth in ME2. I think to myself "each one of these robots is being used like cannon fodder for the larger geth, but each one of them has independent thoughts, and they're being destroyed now." Not to be depressing or anything! --Lilliful 21:28, February 18, 2010 (UTC) *Excellent points. I particularly agree with your assessment of quarians' attachment to migrant culture. A good analogy is, from a male's perspective, dating. If you'll pardon the metaphor of the hunt, the 'pursuit' is, in many respects, more pleasurable than the 'capture'. For a less sexist example, let us take the Odyssey. To Odysseus, the act of wandering round the Mediterranean Sea--the adventure--is more important than actually returning to Ithaca. Once he does return to his home isle, Odysseus feels restless; he feels that he needs to go on another adventure, this time never to return home. I suspect that the quarians are sort of the same way. Also, speculatively speaking, if the quarians were to settle on some world, I suspect that they would probably scrap the Flotilla entirely except for any warships. Most of the fifty thousand vessels in the flotte are unarmed or very lightly armed--not very useful for planetary bombardment or ship-to-ship combat. I think it important to recognise that the quarians created the geth; without the former, the latter would not have existed. By no means does this fact render the quarians infallible. In fact, quite the opposite: the quarians alone bore the burden of the geth well-being. In this task, they failed; the quarians built the geth 'too well', giving them the ability to increase intelligence collectively. However, to blame the quarians for the numerous geth attacks upon Citadel and Alliance space is ridiculous at best, as the attacking geth were, as Legion calls them, 'heretical'. If tomorrow a war between the quarians and the geth were to erupt, I would support the quarians for a number of reasons. Foremost and most stupidly, Tali is HOT ! Now that episode is passed, I would rather see the quarians victorious for the simple reason that the quarians are organic life whilst the geth are synthetic life. Because I am organic, I am somewhat biased, I suppose, in this matter. In geth culture there exists no individuality, as Legions states a number of times. In fact, there exists hardly any emotion at all, save Legion's yet unexplained obsession with Commander Shepard--no love, no regret, no happiness, no esprit de corps, no subjectivity. I would continue, but it might run on for some pages to list all organic emotions. The cold logic of the geth evokes the heartless, pitiless culture of the Houyhnhnms of Gulliver's Travels. Remember that I really like geth. I just happen also to really like quarians. TheCzechDuck 00:54, February 19, 2010 (UTC) :No worries! I didn't expect that you hated geth, just that you loved quarians (particularly Tali!). It seemed like the discussion was a bit combative before I arrived, but I just thought it was interesting and wanted to join in :) :I agree about the importance of the 'symbiosis' persay between the geth and the quarians -- really, whether they like it or not, they're connected. My feeling is, though, that as you say, the quarians were the responsible party, and they did wrong to try and deactivate the geth en masse. I agree they should not be blamed for the attacks on the Citadel, it would be silly. The quarians were wrong to deactivate the geth because they took a "shoot, then ask" policy -- they could have evaluated if they were destroying sentient life, but did not :( Thus, as the group that committed the 'wrong,' I feel they also must be the group to 'concede.' In any conflict, someone must take the first step in the right direction, and I feel that responsibility falls to the quarians. Thus, if the quarians attacked without trying to make things right, they would definitely be in the wrong, to me. I guess for me it's less of a question of 'who I like better' and more of a question of 'justice.' Unusual for an organic, I suppose I have an very squishy and soft place in my heart for all things technological -- probably because I infinitely prefer to communicate with others via typing. Which is ironic, being the outgoing and brash person that I am, but that is my preference! I think that the 'cold' logic of the geth is a matter of perspective -- I get the feeling that, the way geth experience things is just hard to translate, a bit like the Vulcans :) Again, maybe that's my tech-loving-bias coming through, but I feel like if we could see into the experience of the geth, it might have a really shiny, sparkly 'soul' that we can't really conceive of as organics. As for me, I'm only a Tali fan insofar as she's part of the "Garrus and Tali" pair that I'm rooting for -- I much more lean towards the Garrus side! Though I agree Tali is hot, I really love all species that have the backwards facing legs (I don't even know the word for that? It's like the back legs of a cat, and almost all aliens in ME have them!). So yes, that's my two cents :) --Lilliful 01:08, February 19, 2010 (UTC) *The word you're looking for, I believe, is digitigrade.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitigrade I also share your fascination with such knee joints. Anatomically speaking, it makes absolutely no sense at all on a bipedal creature (Garrus, the top-heavy oaf he is, would probably fall flat on his face with such knee joints !); perhaps this is why we like it. As to a lasting quarian - geth peace, the quarians should certainly have to make the first move, for the geth never will. That, I think, is another differentiation between the two species. The geth are perfectly willing to continue a pointless war with the quarians; really, the geth care little one way or the other. The quarians, however, must act soon, else they become inbred and genetically homogeneous. The problem with geth culture is that organics can never fully comprehend it. There exists a certain je ne sais quoi that, like the Prothean Cipher, excludes all else from true comprehension. TheCzechDuck 02:16, February 19, 2010 (UTC) :Ah yes, that is the word I'm looking for! It does make no sense, but for some reason it's so aesthetically appreciable! Maybe my love of cats has biased me? I also wonder why female quarians are so attractive, but male quarians... not so much so! :RE/Difference between the two species -- I don't think it's safe to say that the geth are perfectly willing to continue a pointless war. First of all, it's not really a war, more a mutual non-association. Secondly, the quarians would be more than happy to never speak with the geth again and see them completely disappear, the only difference is that the geth have something that the quarians want, whereas the quarians have little that the geth want, so the quarians are in the position of having to bargain if they cannot take it by war. Lastly, the geth have come into a universe that have essentially declared a moratorium on all AI and synthetic life forms. Who knows what feelings they might have towards organics if they didn't feel so uniformly rejected? I do agree that there's something about the geth that organics will never fully comprehend, but I think that the hanar are similarly incomprehensible, being additionally aquatic and non-verbal (and essentially deaf, I assume). :As it is, I'm not sure what's the best path for the quarians -- settling on a new world and moving on, or being able to return to their homeworld in peace with the geth. I don't think driving the geth out or staying a migrant fleet forever are very good options... But their culture is so based around being migrant and scraping by that I feel there would be very little left that is 'quarian' about them if they were to settle down. Their close-knit community and unmaterialistic culture might completely disappear. Eep, I feel a little bad using the wiki talk page for extensive musings like this (I fear it might be cluttering up the 'recently updated' articles page), so you're also welcome to message me at lalalilliful (AIM). --Lilliful 03:06, February 19, 2010 (UTC) ::I've a better idea. TheCzechDuck 03:22, February 19, 2010 (UTC) Quarians versus Geth (continued) Finally, I've got some free time to think, and I want to explain how exactly I define which characters I would like (and which I would neglect). I have something like a split personality - several identities ("advisors") representing differents POVs; before make a decision, I consult with all of them to reach a consensus. Since initial impression of the character might not fully represent the actual situation, I constantly repeat this procedure. For example, I will present the most and the least recent sessions of my judgment of Tali: 1. Least recent (the first time I met her on Haestrom (I won't reference to the events of original Mass Effect)): Stage 1 Advisor 1 (voice of romance, has a middle-level priority in consensus): "Tali's back! She is still loyal to Shepard! She must really like him!" Advisor 2 (voice of lust, has a low-level priority in consensus): "She is so f**king hot! I wonder, is there a chance for Shepard to screw her?" Advisor 3 (voice of common sense, has a top-level priority in consensus): "She is loyal to Shepard! It means much. She is worthy of my appraisal" Advisor 4 (voice of wisdom, has a top-level priority in consensus): "Tali is knowledgeable, smart and loyal, I'm satisfied!" Advisor 5 (voice of suspicion, has a middle-level priority in consensus): "Tali still trusts Shepard, despite his assosiation with Cerberus, something is not quite right!" Advisor 6 (voice of redemption, has a middle-level priority in consensus): "Nothing to comment on" Stage 2 Advisor 7 (voice of doubt, has a top-level priority in consensus): "I doubt that these assumptions are final" Advisor 8 (voice of hatred, consummates POVs of all previous advisors) - "I have nothing to hate her for" Stage 3 Consensus: "After two years, she is still loyal to Shepard - it doesn't matter whether she has feelings for him or has a great trust in him, she is a perfect team member" 2. Most recent (my current opinion of Tali): Stage 1 Advisor 1 (voice of romance, has a middle-level priority in consensus): "Tali is humble and awkward in love, but her views repel me" Advisor 2 (voice of lust, has a low-level priority in consensus): "She is so f**king hot! And the best thing is - SHEPARD CAN SCREW HER!!!" Advisor 3 (voice of common sense, has a top-level priority in consensus): "Lack of wisdom and logic, coupled with fondness of senseless customs make her one of the least desirable members of the crew" Advisor 4 (voice of wisdom, has a top-level priority in consensus): "Extensive knowledge and good looks are nothing without logic" Advisor 5 (voice of suspicion, has a middle-level priority in consensus): "Goddamn Geth hater - she pays little attention to few Shepard flaws, because she has plenty" Advisor 6 (voice of redemption, has a middle-level priority in consensus): "Despite her many flaws, there is still a chance for her to see the truth" Stage 2 Advisor 7 (voice of doubt, has a top-level priority in consensus): "I doubt that sixth advisor is correct in his assesment" Advisor 8 (voice of hatred, consummates POVs of all previous advisors) - "This bitch shall pay for her foolishness" Stage 3 Consensus: "I strongly dislike Tali for her illogical views and prejudices. Considering the situation, redemption is unlikely. Additional note: why are all female team members are so bitchy? Possible explanation: they never had a love-sex; possible resolution - become a lover of their dreams" Well, although I disagree with your appraisal of Tali and the quarians, I sincerely appreciate your logical and thorough exploration of your own thought processes. I do wonder, however, how you changed from evident amicability to torrential hatred. I particularly question Tali's, as you call it, 'lack of wisdom and logic'. Additionally, the conclusion of the first process that Tali is a 'perfect' squad-mate does not follow. Thirdly, I take issue with the 'priorities' you assign to different 'advisors', as you call them. Can it be assumed that these priorities' 'values' are simply your opinion ? That is, to say, must everyone think that, for example, the 'voice of suspicion' has a 'mid-level' importance ? Why could it not have 'low-level' importance, or even 'top-level' importance ? Why is 'voice of doubt' a 'top-level advisor' ? How do you qualify each 'advisor's' value ? Through your own opinion of what said 'advisor' should be worth ? TheCzechDuck 20:32, February 19, 2010 (UTC) :As a really small sidenote, it seemed like all it took for you to like her in stage 1 was that she was loyal, intelligent, and hot. I don't think she became any less intelligent or hot. One can still be intelligent and prejudiced, particularly if it's the overwhelmingly accepted view of her people (slavery, anyone?). You can argue she became less loyal, but in the first section one of your advisers seemed worried that she was following you and not her own moral code which rejected Cerberus, but when she decides to seriously question your judgment over the geth, sticking to her values, suddenly she is a bitch because those views don't happen to coincide with Shepard's. True, these views may be prejudicial, but I hold firm that Tali is a sympathetic, yet flawed, character. And, nowhere in all your musings did I see much about the fact that she has a good heart, and is deeply loyal to her people and those she cares about. Someone who has those values has a high likelihood of being able to open their heart to new ideas, especially when presented by the people she cares strongly about. Anyway, yes, done ranting. I guess this wasn't a small sidenote at all, eheh. --Lilliful 20:40, February 19, 2010 (UTC) :To answer TheCzechDuck's questions: 1. "Lack of wisdom and logic": (Tali's thought process) 1.1 We created non-organic sentient life-form; 1.2 We THOUGHT they would try to destroy us (sidenote: apparently, Quarians had their own version of Terminator to learn upon); 1.3 We tried to destroy them; 1.4 They drove us from our homeworld; 1.5 We wander aimlessly for 300 hundred years in space; 1.5 We think THEY are the ones to blame for all this 2. First time I met her, she was really perfect - none of advisors had any substantial disagreement on this; 3. Voice of suspicion - I cannot assign top priority to this advisor - suspicion must not get in the way of logic, but must cause some doubt; 4. Voice of doubt - I must doubt everything, so that initial impression won't become a permanent one, eventually backfiring on me Lack of DLC Do you find it quite annoying to wait for Hammerhead or Kasumi too? I mean, Bioware at least could have released something small (like new SMG or armor) while working on bigger DLC! Signed by Naihilus Ceris 15:32, February 25, 2010 (UTC) *It does seem rather strange, doesn't it ? One would think that Bioware would have done something by now. TheCzechDuck 23:58, February 25, 2010 (UTC) *Yeah i know rightThe geth rule 00:07, February 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Splendid news - look here: Hammerhead - they've finally announced the approximate release date! Also I strongly suggest to view screenshots with Hammerhead on the official ME2 site |Signed by Naihilus Ceris| 15:21, February 26, 2010 (UTC)